RM: Where are you from?
Melissa: The very small town of Hecla, South Dakota.

RM: Did you go to pastry school?
Melissa: I studied business and finance at the University of South Dakota.
Emily: I studied Sculpture and Photography at Pratt Institute in Brooklyn, and also a semester at Central Saint Martins in London.

RM: You are sisters, right?
Emily: Always and forever.

RM: Why pie?
Melissa: We've both always loved to bake. We were inspired to focus on pies by the devoted following our grandmother's pies had at our family's restaurant in Hecla, where we grew up working. We are still excited about all the filling possibilities.

RM: What inspired you to open the cafe?
Emily: It was something we had been loosely considering, but serendipitously finding the perfect Gowanus location really set the ball rolling. Emily is a co-founder of the Gowanus Studio Space, which is very near the shop. We recognized a need for a local coffee shop in the area, and we knew we needed to take our pie baking to the next level, as we had been baking from home for about a year and were quickly outgrowing that!

RM: Did it mark a career change or were you doing this semi-professionally before?
Melissa: I had moved to Brooklyn to start my career, but entry-level opportunities in finance were pretty slim in 2009. Emily was working as an archivist at the photo agency Art + Commerce, as well as helping run the Gowanus Studio Space. We had always talked of starting a business together, and so in February of 2009 we started baking from home to test the waters. We officially deemed ourselves Four & Twenty Blackbirds and did quite a lot of baking for special orders and events throughout the year.
Emily: I had baked a lot of pies for friends throughout the years, and Melissa was known for her wedding cakes. Because of our grandmother's pie, we had a predisposed love of the humble dessert. We like tarts, too.

RM: Why did you decide to name your cafe after a nursery rhyme?
Melissa: It was suggested by a literary-minded family friend. We had been checking nursery rhymes for inspiration because many of them have pie references. It struck us immediately and made us smile when we read it. We also liked the subtle macabre tone, what with noses being pecked off and birds baked in pies and all. There is a dark and light to it, and it is also a little funny.

RM: What advice would you give to other entrepreneurs?
Emily: Talk to other business owners, get advice from someone who's done it before. We wrote a thorough business plan, which was integral to our planning stage and is still something we reference. Ask your friends and family for their input, their advice, their opinions. Have a sense of humor and recognize the fact that you will be doing this 24/7 for the next couple of years. Be prepared to turn over your whole life to making it succeed. Find good, trustworthy, and reliable help because you can't run a food business alone. We have had so many wonderful people supporting us and rooting for us; we feel blessed, and it means a lot to have that in our corner. Be honest with yourself about what you can and can't do, and don't be tempted to go beyond your capabilities, or your product will fail.

RM: What makes your pies unique?
Melissa: We're really into balanced flavors, so we include vinegars, bitters, aromatics, and savory elements so the results are not just sweet on sweet. Some of our flavors are totally original, and many are experiments. We like to make things that are a little unexpected and unusual but also appealing and recognizable.

RM: What’s the secret to your amazing crust? It seems thicker than most—is it a double recipe?
Melissa: We believe that a pie is defined by its crust, so it had better be tasty. We make an all-butter crust, with a little apple cider vinegar in the ice water used to combine for tenderness and tang. We definitely go generous on the crust, but hopefully it doesn't overpower the filling.

RM: Are you kidding? It’s perfect proportion. How do you choose your ingredients?
Emily: We are fruit fanatics, and we pursue really high quality Northeast fruit. We bake only with fruit that's in season, and then do custards and creams in the winter. We do source some of our apples from the West Coast because Granny Smiths are prevalent there, so far as we've found.

We are still learning about sourcing. It's a challenge, and fruit comes and goes quickly. We sourced rhubarb from our dad in South Dakota since he grows a giant patch of it. He got all of his neighbors to chip in to ship it to us all summer. We also get rhubarb locally, some from right here in Brooklyn, along with big beautiful blackberries, from a neighbor down the street. Another neighbor has an amazing rooftop garden and she provides us with all kinds of things we use in savory pies. She also did our totally edible window boxes for us.

Customers so far have been understanding of the seasonality thing, and we are excited to spread the word of supporting local agriculture and eating seasonally. We even host a CSA in our shop! Our eggs and milk come from Basis Farm to Chef, we use Battenkill Valley Creamery milk and Feather Ridge Farm eggs, all locally produced. Our coffee, Irving Farm, is roasted upstate in Millerton, New York.

We also make weekly trips to the farmer's market to get whatever vegetables are in season for our savories and some special fruits like gooseberries. We get figs from a friend who has trees in Red Hook—Brooklyn figs are awesome!

RM: We see that you are experimenting with alcohol as an ingredient?
Melissa: The holiday season is a celebratory time, when a little indulgence is a good thing. Liqueurs and spirits pair well with end-of-season fruits and chocolates, and are in line with our sweet and savory ambitions. Boozy pie is fun.

RM: Where do your recipes come from?
Melissa: We take inspiration from all over, but many of our recipes originate from old American cookbooks.

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